
Vivek Kaul, DNAIndia.com, February 1, 2010
The date: September 19, 2008
The players: Henry Merritt Hank Paulson Jr — The 74th
treasury secretary of the US, Neel T Kashkari — assistant treasury secretary
for financial stability, Kevin I Fromer — assistant treasury secretary for
legislative affairs.
The motive: To decide on the amount of money to ask the US Congress for the
bailout of the collapsing American financial system.
The dialogue:
“What about $1 trillion?” Kashkari said.
“We’ll get killed,” Paulson said grimly.
“Okay,” Kashkari said. “How about
$700 billion?”
“I don’t know,” Fromer said. “That’s better than $1 trillion.”
“There’s around $11 trillion of residential mortgages, there’s around $3
trillion of commercial mortgages, that leads to $14 trillion, roughly 5% of
that is $700 billion,” said Kashkari.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the big round number,
for the biggest financial bailout in history of mankind was decided.
“The number was made up out of thin air. It was literally
Hank Paulson and his team sitting around in a room trying to figure out how much
money they could possibly get the Congress to give them,” says Andrew Ross
Sorkin (Above), reporter and columnist from The New York Times and most recently, the
author of the best selling, fly in the wall account of the initial days of the
financial crisis: Too Big To Fail - Inside the Battle to Save Wall Street (The
dialogue above has been reproduced from the book). In this interview, Sorkin
speaks to DNA on the days leading to the start of the financial
crisis and why Wall Street still hasn’t learnt its lessons. Excerpts:
Why did Paulson and Geithner let Lehman Brothers go under?
They saved just about everything before and after that...
There were a couple of reasons. The first piece of it was that frankly, they
had run out of time and that there was enormous amount of political pressure
that Paulson, in particular, was under to not be Mr Bailout. On the fateful
Sunday (September 14, 2008) what happened was once Barclays (which was trying
to buy out Lehman Brothers) was gone, Paulson thought he had run out of options.
Also they (Paulson and Timothy Geither, then president of the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York, now Paulson’s successor at the treasury) determined that
there was no collateral Lehman had, so they felt that they couldn’t lend.
I also think there was an element of frustration with Dick
Fuld (the CEO of Lehman Brothers) and with Lehman Brothers. Paulson had been
pushing on them for months and months and months to do something and he felt
that they hadn’t. In the final pieces, the regulators let Lehman fail because
the CEOs involved in the rescue effort who were around the table that weekend
at the Federal Reserve, all were telling the regulators that they had lowered
their exposure, and that it would be okay, and that the world would survive
without Lehman Brothers.
Why was Lehman unable to do a deal on its own with Warren
Buffett, or Barclays Bank, which was interested in buying them or for that
matter even Bank of America, which ultimately bought Merrill Lynch?
The problem for Lehman was that they started looking for a buyer way too late.
And they didn’t want to accept a low price. There were probably opportunities
to have sold the firm or got in a major equity investment much earlier in the
year 2008, and would have been even better if they had been looking in late
2007, when some of the other banks raised money. But they didn’t. So by the
time they really started looking, the market had turned sour and there were
many questions about the way they valued their books.
And what about Warren Buffett?
There was this secret conversation back in March 2008, where Warren had spoken
about trying to buy a stake in Lehman Brothers and Fuld did not want to do it
and frankly, Buffett did not want to do it either because the terms weren’t
going to be good enough, but he was also worried about the business. Everybody
was worried about what was on the books of Lehman Brothers. Nobody knew how bad
it really it could be.
Would the crisis have panned out differently if Lehman had
been rescued?
There is no question in my mind that the greatest mistake that the government
made in all of this was letting Lehman Brothers go. Had they not let Lehman go
under, the crisis would not have been as nearly as deep. That is not to say
that there would have been no crisis at all, because remember, AIG was going to
be next and that they would have had to deal with one of these. And by the way,
it’s possible that if they had bailed out Lehman Brothers, they would have felt
that they couldn’t have bailed out AIG. So it is all very difficult to judge
what would have happened, because it is hypothetical. But letting Lehman go on
its own was by miles the biggest mistake.
How did the government come around to rescuing AIG a few
days after they let Lehman go under?
The reasons for saving AIG were much clear than the reasons for saving Lehman
Brothers. AIG had so many counterparties there was a feeling that if you let
AIG go, you were going to put a dozen other banks and institutions out of
business and really put pressure on economies not just in the US, but around
the world.
Remember, BNP Paribas and many other French banks and other
global banks were exposed to AIG. The other issue was that the Federal Reserve
had determined — wrongly, but determined, none the less — that AIG had enough
collateral to lend them money. The calculation was wrong because AIG didn’t
have the collateral and at that time, the Federal Reserve thought it did and so
the Fed lent the money. Interestingly, if you think who was around the table
when they were discussing AIG: Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan.
Everybody at that table had as much incentive to say that
AIG had as much collateral as humanly possible, whereas all the people who were
around the table talking about Lehman Brothers during that weekend had every
incentive to say that there was no collateral, because everybody wanted to buy
Lehman for nothing.
Do you think AIG had overextended itself by going beyond its
core business of insurance into exotic derivative products such as credit
default swaps?
Oh, absolutely! My favourite part of the whole book by the way, is when
President Bush says to Paulson and Ben Bernanke: “An insurance company does all
this?” Well, this one did. If you had asked 99% of the world ‘What does AIG
do’, they would have told you it’s an insurance company. But it really was so
much more. And that was a big part of the problem.
How did something like that happen?
It was never regulated by the Federal Reserve or the Securities Exchange
Commission (the stock market regulator). The way it works in the US is that
there are statewide regulators. So let’s say if you run an insurance company in
the state of New York, you will be regulated by the New York state insurance
regulator. So the regulator was always looking into the subsidiaries of AIG.
Nobody was looking at the parent company nor were they looking at AIG Financial
Products, which was a separate unit, which ended up not being regulated. Most
of the derivative trading that they did was so opaque that it was difficult for
regulators to appreciate or comprehend how deep they were in these markets.
How did Paulson go from being “I can’t be Mr Bailout” to
someone who rescued almost everybody?
It was very difficult for him getting his head around to the idea of rescuing
everybody. But that Wednesday after the authorities had let Lehman go
(September 17, 2008) and after they had saved AIG, when they saw that Morgan
Stanley was next, and that Goldman Sachs was after that and that General
Electric, the global conglomerate, could be in jeopardy…
We were at a moment were big and small companies potentially
were not be going to able to make payroll the next week. And that’s why it was
quite an extraordinary problem. And that was the awakening, a realisation that
the only way to fix this would be to truly step into the bridge. He hated it and
I mean literally, it was something that bothered him very much. But he felt
that it was the thing they needed to do. And frankly, in the end, it was the
right thing to do though we would be living with the repercussions of those
decisions for years to come.
Do you think the Wall Street CEOs involved in the initial
stages of the rescue had an idea that they were a part of history as it was
being made?
I spent a lot of time with many of those participants and I think they did
realise it. There were some of them who actually ended up taking notes at the
meetings. And I asked them why they took notes, because most of these CEOs
never take notes. At least one of them said to me that this was history in the
making.
People at the helm of things at Wall Street are the best of
the breed. Why do you think they didn’t see the crisis coming?
Great question! This generation of leaders on Wall Street had never experienced
failure like this before. The idea that the entire system could fall apart was
beyond their comprehension. I would say it is like the failure of imagination.
I am a journalist, you are a journalist and I would say that we are
professional sceptics. If you are on Wall Street, a part of your job is to be a
professional optimist. Really. Jamie Dimon a couple of weeks ago was on Capitol
Hill and he was saying that when they built their models, they did not include
the assumption of real estate prices falling. And it was just remarkable. It
was just a lack of control, lack of oversight and a lack of imagination on what
really could happen.
Did the Federal Reserve and Treasury officials realise the
magnitude of the crisis when they initially started to deal with it?
Oh, they missed it completely. The regulators missed it. Alan Greenspan missed
it. Ben Bernanke missed it. Hank Paulson missed it. Tim Geithner missed it.
Throughout the entire process, they were always behind, they could never catch
a break. Everyday was worse than the day before. It was very difficult for
them, but there is no question that like the people on Wall Street, they missed
it too. And I always say one of the reasons for that is this sort of
‘groupthink’, where all of them come from the same background, and they think
the same way.
The feeling that one gets from your book is that the entire
rescue process in September was extremely haphazard. As Ben Bernanke put it and
you quote in the book, “There are no atheists in foxholes and no ideologues in
financial crises.”
Zero. You are absolutely right. There was no plan. They had thought about
different contingency plans, but they never really, really, had a plan on how to
deal with any of these things. Again, because they never really, truly
comprehended that they were going to be in this place. And it is worrying for a
lot of people when you realise that your elected officials didn’t have a plan.
It’s nerve wracking.
How did the $700 billion bailout number happen?
That they made up. And that’s what I find so comical about it because the
number was made out of thin air. It was literally Hank Paulson and his team
sitting around in a room trying to figure out how much money they could
possibly scare the Congress to give them. So the number had very little to do
with what they thought they needed and everything to do with how much they
thought they could get.
What was the most audacious rescue proposal you heard about
during those days?
The most audacious or surprising proposal in my mind was the effort to put
Goldman Sachs and Citigroup together. When Tim Geithner had called up Llyod
Blankfein and suggested that he call Vikram Pandit. To think now what would
have happened had Goldman Sachs and Citigroup been merged is quite a thought.
Citigroup, as you know, required a massive government bailout only months
later.So if you had merged it with Goldman, the situation frankly might have
been worse.
Most of Paulson’s team at the Treasury were ex-Goldman
employees. Did that have an impact on the decisions they made?
Yes and no. I do believe that the number of former Goldman employees clearly
created as I said before, what I call the ‘groupthink’ about how they
approached all these issues. And by the time Goldman was in trouble, clearly
there was an effort to make sure that firm did not go under. But I don’t think
that they did anything to try to advantage Goldman at the disadvantage of
everybody else, despite all the conspiracy theories.
Would you say Wall Street was a victim of “a strategy that
worked extraordinarily well right up until the moment it didn’t?”
Oh, 100%. On Wall Street, everything works until it doesn’t, and that’s what
happened.
One of the things you say towards the end of the book is
“the sad reality is that Washington typically tends not to notice much until an
actual crisis is in hand.” Do you think things have changed since the crisis
broke out?
It’s funny, [but] if you had asked me that question only a couple of weeks ago,
I would have told you that things seem to be the same and sadly so.
Over the past couple of weeks here in the US, there has been
a real popular outrage around the country on what’s going on in Wall Street.
And President Obama has made a number of proposals to reign in Wall Street.
It’s the first time we are seeing some of these things. I wish that they were
more comprehensive, meaning he is kind of announcing one plan one week. It
would be much better if there was a comprehensive plan. But I do think that
Wall Street, as a result of these things, is going to change and you are
already seeing a little bit with the incentives. The bonuses are coming down.
They are being put more in stock. There is less leverage. But I will tell you
that the ethos, the culture of Wall Street hasn’t changed. Greed, as Gordon
Gecko said in the movie Wall Street, is still good.
What about the likes of Goldman and Morgan Stanley which
survived the crisis. Are they still taking on the kind of risk as they did in
the past?
Morgan Stanley is clearly not taking the same kind of risk. They have changed
their model quite substantially, in part, because they were not very good at
taking risk. Goldman Sachs is still taking an enormous amount of risk, probably
more so than just about any firm on Wall Street. It will be interesting to see
whether the government really puts pressure on them to stop taking such risk.
Could you elaborate on this?
If you were to look at Goldman’s earnings, a disproportionate amount of their
earnings comes from proprietary trading, trading for their clients. So they are
taking on risks to do that whereas at the other firms, most of their revenues
are coming either from advisory services or other types of businesses that don’t
require enormous amount of risk. Goldman is still, at some level, operating
with more risk on a day-to-day basis. In fact for Goldman, the value at risk,
the kind of money at risk everyday, was actually higher last year than it was a
year before the crisis.
How do you see this crisis playing out?
Oh boy! If I knew that, I wouldn’t be a journalist. (laughs)
But that is a question one needs to ask...
’Know it is. I suspect that we are going to see more and more efforts at
regulation over the next 12 months. I don’t know if they are going to have any
teeth. I don’t know if the regulations are going to be significant or if they
get watered down, but I do think it’s going to be a part of a national and
global conversation about Wall Street and risk, for months, if not years to
come. In the US especially, it does not look like that the economy is going to
be coming back in a major way anytime quickly. I imagine that we are going to
be bumping along the bottom for a very long time.